Thursday, January 9, 2025

Best of the Velocity Matches #6

 Tajiri vs Billy Kidman, 9/17/2002


You give Tajiri 4 minutes to have a match, you're gonna get a really nice match. Even though this was short, it had everything. Cool armwork from Tajiri, Kidman doing a nice job selling said armwork and making one-armed comebacks, surprising nearfalls, and a neat finish. Tajiris kicks certainly hold up very well and his Arn Anderson-like focus is just great.

Albert vs Funaki, 9/17/2002

This was really fun. Albert had it rough in 2002, feuding and trading wins on Velocity with Funaki, but he gave his everything into these matches. Really exemplifies hard work. Funaki barrages Albert with fast dropkicks to start, they do some cool big man vs small man action, and Albert clobbers Funaki with great looking Vader hammers. Crowd is really into hating Albert, I guess looking fat hairy and disgusting is excellent heel work in itself. Funaki working Alberts chest hair rules and the crowd popping big for the finish is once again awesome.

Crash vs The Hurricane, 9/17/2002

This has a really amusing backstage promo. Funaki (who had just taken a beating from Albert) interviews Crash backstage telling him he will face THE HURRICANE and Crash does this really funny terrified face. The match is fun too. Hurricane is an amusing goofy babyface and Crash feeds into him in all kinds of interesting ways. Nobody ever talks about guys like Crash or Hurricane anymore and that's why it's cool to discover how they would work a match. Neither guy here is a generic highflying cruiserweight or technician so just the way they do things is cool. There are some fun reversals, Hurricane teasing the CHOKESLAM, a really well timed nearfall for a pin with the foot on the ropes etc. Just fun all around.

 Crash vs Billy Kidman, 9/24/2002

Crash rules. He's such a great stooge, he's sneaky, and he is great at pulling off odd and interesting stuff without coming across as cute. Kidman doesn't show a ton of fire but he is good enough when he needs to sell and he obviously has the athleticism to go hard.. This had some great backwork from Crash, including dropping Kidman over the guardrail with an awesome backbreaker, Crash feeding into Kidman in interesting ways, Crash countering Kidmans bulldog that normally sets up his finish, and then immediately stealing it, plus the way Crash does the finish is awesome.

John Cena vs D-Von Dudley, 9/24/2002

Rookie Cena is a lot of fun to watch. He has really good form on everything, and you don't know what he's gonna bust out. His cookie cutter arm drags and shoulder blocks control segment is cool, and he takes a BIG bump face down to the floor when D-Von cuts him off. D-Von nails him with a really hard clothesline and then takes a big bump of his own missing an elbow drop off the top. Cena at this point is oddly athletic - he hits a really sweet dropkick, counters D-Vons finisher by backflipping out in an impressive display. Great nearfall here when Cena is able to survive D-Vons nasty looking neckbreaker off the ropes. The finish is neat too as they do a callback to the cut off. Cena wins with a sunset flip over the ropes of all things and whoever does that anymore? I love pro wrestling.
 

Saturday, January 4, 2025

Ice Ribbon ADVERSITY NINE 6/25/2011

 

Adversity Nine Match: Emi Sakura vs Hikaru Shida vs Chii Tomiya vs Tsukushi vs Kurumi vs Mochi Miyagi vs Mary Naito vs Maki Narumiya vs Dorami Nagano


This match had an insane stipulation. It was a gauntlet of double round robin singles matches with a 1 minute time limit, with everybody facing everybody for 1 minute each, two times. So that means what you get here is 72 consecutive singles matches in a bit over an hour. That is the kind of insane thing that I absolutely have to check out, and it was absolutely worth it because this ruled and absolutely worked in every way.


A big part of why the match works so well is the set hierarchy and entry order. The wrestlers are ordered from strongest (Sakura) to weakest (Nagano). The clue is that everybody faces each other twice. So, Nagano has to start facing the strongest wrestlers, but after surviving that, the following round the weakest wrestlers are added back to the end of the gauntlet. That means even the high ranked wrestlers would get in trouble, because after facing 8 opponents in a row not getting beaten by the weakest wrestler in the group would be challenging even for them. After going through so many opponents it becomes challenging to not get tapped by even a basic Boston Crab, and that is really compelling.


Another reason for why this match works so well is that everybody here had a character and they were all working their own separate stories. The main goal was clear – for the weaker wrestlers, survive the gauntlet taking as few Ls as possible, and then try to beat the stronger wrestlers later when they have to face you at the end of the gauntlet. For the stronger wrestlers, pick up as many Ws as possible and then try not to lose to weak ass Maki Narumiya or Dorami Nagano. Before watching this I was not familiar with the 2011 Ice Ribbon roster at all. I know Emi Sakura, I vaguely know about Shida and Tsukushi, I didn’t really know anyone else, but watching the match I got really into almost everybody here. You had someone like Shida, who is a badass who can tap out everybody and drop bombs, and then you had the likes of Maki Narumiya with nothing except a good overhand chop and a torture rack. Watching someone like Narumiya fight really hard and try to get a W despite her limitations was really cool. Everybody here brought something unique to the table, and because of the 1 minute format everyone could just get in, try to win, and get out before getting exposed. There was also plenty of stylistic variety - you had the surely badass Shida with her straight forward armbars and knee strikes, the slick technician Chii, the explosive rookie Tsukushi, the more surely power moves of Kurumi or Miyagi, the basic rookie moves of Dorami Nagano etc. I’m not sure if I would want to watch someone like Mochi Miyagi or Dorami Nagano in a normal match but in this setting they were really cool because they played part in a bigger story and freshened things up. The only wrestler who looked downright shitty was Mary Naito, even that can be kind of forgiven because she was never in the ring very long and in some case just got in to lose in 10 seconds.


Because of the 1 minute format, flash pins and submissions became important, which is always nice because it means you get more than just bomb dropping. Ice Ribbon is kind of flash pin central, and there were some really cool ones. Hikaru Shida was by far the biggest badass in the match, she was acing this thing tapping everybody out with cool out of nowhere armbars. I was also surprised by Chii Tomiya, who looked like a really slick wrestler with cool flash pins and a variety of ways to finish her opponents. Emi Sakura is of course the big boss and she played that role to perfection, and when it was time to go hard she did go hard. The first few gauntlets here were compelling due to the story being told with a few great moments and payoffs, but the last couple rounds when it was Tomiya, Shida and Sakura going through the gauntlet were some of the finest wrestling I’ve ever seen. The ‘any move can finish’ factor really made this edge of your seat stuff and there were some awesome counters and upsets, without going overboard. Watching the top ranked wrestlers try to survive the weakest opponents was fascinating. Tsukushi was really young here, and while her execution wasn’t perfect she’s a cool wildcard with her slick flash pins and high energy, also kicked Sakura flash in the face at one point. After the gauntlet is done the two wrestlers with the best score face off for another round to settle it and it’s a really cool ‘throw the kitchen sink and try to win’ scrap. Really one of the most unique matches I’ve ever seen, it was shockingly well put together, told a great story with wide cast of characters and delivered some awesome wrestling while the match time flew by. It’s the kind of insane thing that I would like to see tried again, although I think it can only really work in joshi. Emi Sakura, you are a whacky genius.

 

The Library

Thursday, January 2, 2025

2025 Wrestling Week 1

 Michio Kageyama vs Cosmo Soldier, Sportiva 1/1

No better way to start wrestling in 2025 with Sportiva. This was really raw, just two tough old guys trying to smash each other which is kind of the best type of Japanese pro wrestling. Cosmo Soldier is such a force of chaos. He looks like a stereotypical masked hero, but his moves are somewhere between graceful and reckless, and often more reckless. I especially liked his 619 that cracked Kageyama square in the face. Kageyama was up there with him here, trying to smash him with vicious kicks and that old Sportiva bar stool, even tearing off Cosmos protective bandage to kick him in the spine harder.. He acted like a real scumbag, too. There is something savage about Cosmo hitting a suicide dive on that wooden bar floor. Add in some skull cracking headbutts from Cosmo and yeah, this definitely adds up to a match worth checking out.

Yasu Kubota vs Ari Najima, Sportiva 1/1

I was surprised how much I enjoyed this. Yasu Kubota is an old scumbag, but he's the champion now and he puts in effort, in his own scummy way. Ari Najima is really good as the young hotness, he's explosive and hits really hard, and it's really interesting to see how the much less physically intimidating champion would respond. The answer is that Kubota put in an almost Bret-Hart-like workman performance, giving Najima a stiff working over. He was really mauling Najima with nasty elbows and really cranking back on those spine stretches, and using his experience to his advantage. So even though Najima is younger, faster, cooler, it was believable that Kubota could put him through the wringer, and that is impressive. I also loved Kubota busting out the reverse gory special to target Najimas weak back further. Smart match that I think people will really enjoy, that really told a good story and was a good long form title match for the small confines of a humble sportsbar.

2025 Wrestling Roundup

2025 Wrestling Roundup

 I admit I have a bit of a tough time keeping up with current wrestling. There is simply a bit much of it, with the stuff that I am interested in being kind of hard to find. To better myself, I will try to watch at least 1 match from the current year, let's see how much good stuff we can find.


2025 Wrestling Worth Watching:

January

Cosmo Soldier vs Michio Kageyama, Sportiva 1/1

Yasu Kubota vs Ari Najima, Sportiva 1/1

Friday, December 20, 2024

Mutoha 12/1/2024

Get it from @itako18jp on X!

 

 Mighty Yuki & Hoshitango & Shigeo Kato vs Super Crafter U & Nobu Kaseda & Crusher Takahashi

A fast paced 6 man tags with a lot of old guys and two fiery but unique youngsters in Nobu Kaseda and Mighty Yuki. It reminded me of those old guy tags from AJPW or NOAH, although this was a bit more serious maybe. Everybody did the stuff that makes them unique - so you had Shigeo Kato doing his signature sneaky ratboy technical heel tactics, and Crusher Takahashi hitting beautiful punches and Hoshitango being a cranky old sumo. Mighty Yuki is actually the son of Masahiko Takasugi, and he was paying tribute to the recently deceased Mighty Inoue, which feels strangely fitting. I would've liked to see Super Crafter U get to do a little more because he is an awesome beast. A fun match, while it wasn't overly technical it suits the vibe of MUTOHA.

 

Leo Cristiani vs Deimos Hatebreed vs El Hijo de Alebrije

Well, this match doesn't suit the vibe of Mutoha. All these guys were also on the Secret Base show the same day. Cristiani and Hatebreed are two wrestlers from Europe. I think it would be cool to see European technical style on a Mutoha show, but these two are just two random high flyers who wrestle in the same way as everybody now, and there was nothing here that stood out to me. They hit some big flying moves, one after another, some looking sloppy and some impressive, and in the end I remembered nothing about this match. Now, will an Italian or Portuguese promotion book GENTARO vs Kenichiro Arai?


Shoji Ohno vs Dekai Ichimotsu

With this match the show really begins. This was really unique, and amazing. They are both so cool. Even the basic early wrestling in this was great as both guys were trying to snap limbs and joints in unusual ways. Then Ichimotsu began cluster bombing Ohnos legs. I gotta give it to Dekai Ichimotsu, he is the king when it comes to painfully dropkicking a guy in the knee joint from odd angles. By the end Ohno was like a soldier who has lost his legs to a landmine but somehow kept fighting. It was a truely gritty and dirty fight, while retaining the technical edge that is the signature of Mutoha. Both guys hit skull cracking headbutts and Ichimotsu pulled off cool reversals and more leg attacks. Once again Ohno rushed his opponent with an amazing flurry of palm strikes. Ohno looks really tough fighting through the leg damage and trying to pull off a win. I like that Ohno seems like a tough brawler guy, but occasionall he can pull of something surprisingly technical. A great match, no doubt about it.

 

Hiroshi Yamamoto vs Taro Yamada

A very promising match up. Hiroshi Yamamoto is the man who can do it all on the Japanese indy scene, he wrestles everywhere and he can pull off seemingly every style of match. Looking up info about him, it seems that he was trained by Virus, so he should be a good opponent for Yamada. And Taro Yamadas is one of the best kept secrets in Japanese indy wrestling. But Yamamoto has stood tall in big leagues like All Japan, so in away Yamada is punching way upwards here. And this match felt a bit like an All Japan match, too. It wasn't as technical as the more intense  Mutoha matches, but there was a lots of hold for hold stuff that felt very battle-for-control in the style of old Jumbo Tsuruta matches, and they both mixed in some explosive surprise moves that were bigger than you'd expect. In the end it was a very worthy match, although I don't like everything that Yamamoto does, such as his goofy X-chop attack. I will give it to him that he is a very graceful wrestler, though. And Yamada proved that he can step on the mat with the best in his country and go along every step of the way.



Akira Jo vs Hideya Iso

One of Akira Jos best performances I've seen so far, because he was clinical taking Iso apart with nasty headlocks and neck cranks, while Iso did an awesome job gutting it out and trying to pull of the biggest upset of his life. Iso for a guy who looks pretty ancient and crusty pulls of some great surprises here. Jo trying to crank Isos neck with basic headlocks actually made for a compelling story, there's something distinctly awesome about him going 'fuck you, I'm gonna beat you with a side headlock'. There was one absolutely awesome moment that involved Iso escaping a sleeper attempt that was honestly probably the best thing I've seen in a match all year. Iso looks outmatched but he just kept fighting like a god damn hero and I was thoroughly impressed. I really like this kind of single minded approach to a match, really making you appreciate the most basic elements of pro wrestling in a new light. It's the kind of match that you will only ever see in Mutoha these days and that is why I appreciate this company so much.


Yasushi Sato vs Kenichiro Arai

 
Another chess match that had touches of the unique grappling that both guys do so well, as well as a hearty dose of Memphis. Everything mattered, even something as simple as shaking your opponents hand, or getting in the ring, and there was tons of great struggle. Right at the first hold exchange, Sato went for the Russian Leg Sweep looking to grapevine his opponent, with Arai desperately scrambling out. The rest of the match was largely about Arai trying to weaken Sato while Sato would go for throws and flash pins that Arai would desperately avoid. Both guys acted wary of the danger of any pinfall. I am endlessly fascinated by Yasushi Sato. As far as I know, his wrestling career begin 16 years ago and now he is 58 years old, which is crazy. He is starting to show his age physically but his wrestling mind is still one of the greatest I've ever seen. He was going at it with Arai like no tomorrow, trying to shock the champion with surprise moves, even using underhand tactics of his own, and always trying to put Arai on his shoulders for the 3. It was the kind of stuff that would make the likes of Dick Murdoch proud. The one weak point of the match was the slap exchange but that was a minor criticism. The ending was baffling and thrilling but it made sense, sometimes it can really be all over like that and you have to love it if you appreciate pro wrestling as a crafty sport. As it stands this had a lot of really good grappling and technical work, both guys looked like sly foxes, and everything they did felt spontaneous and fresh. There aren't many wrestlers who can wrestle like this left in the world, and for that I appreciate these two!


2024 MOTY List

The Library




Friday, November 29, 2024

Early Mutoha

Get these from @itako18jp on Twitter! 

 

Hiroshi Watanabe vs Kazuhiro Tamura, Mutoha 6/20/2010

Upon watching this the first time I thought this might be one of the 10 greatest wresting matches I’ve ever seen. Maybe even top 5. I may be overrating it slightly, but it’s a really damn great match.

Obviously, there was a big hype around last years GENTARO/Arai match. I think this bout here gives that match a run for it’s money. Don’t get me wrong, GENTARO/Arai is a completely unique beast. In that match, they did things in a completely different way and succeeded. This bout between Watanabe and Tamura here is much more conventional and energetic with lots of high-impact offense throughout, but aiming for similar grand scale. It probably has much more mainstream appeal than the more esoteric Arai/GENTARO. As such, I would like as many wrestling fans as possible to check this out.


The main reason why the match works so well is the contrast of Kazuhiro Tamura to Hiroshi Watanabe. Kazuhiro Tamura is shooter-type wrestler, with punishing kicks and a style of matwork that means he will go for the kill right from the get go. Hiroshi Watanabe with his shaven head, black trunks and boots and deceptive physique is as close to the picture of a classic no frills technician as you can get. Stylistically the match they go for is reminiscent of an 80s New Japan vs UWF wrestler vs shooter match. And because of the 2/3 falls match format, as well as the unrelenting nature of both wrestlers, this becomes an epic struggle.


The second reason why the match works is that they do not hold back. Often in a long match, especially a 2/3 falls match that is going to be strategic, wrestlers will noticably hold back and resort to obvious time killing. That is not the case here, as right away Tamura is kicking away at Watanabe and going for dangerous submissions like straight armbars on the ground that can believably decide a fall even after just 5 minutes. In contrast Watanabe is very much an old school type catch wrestler here, not afraid to snatch a kimura lock, and coming up with lots of neat counters. Watanabe sticking to his guns and focussing on trying to catch this modern day shooter with this 50s/60s style holds and flying kneedrops was really great. With Tamuras explosiveness it makes a really great aggressor vs counter-wrestler matchup. And because of the 2/3 falls rule, a finish can plausibly occur at any time, which makes this edge of your seat stuff throughout.


There are some moments where they kind of take breathers – Tamura tries locking Watanabe out of the arena for a countout victory, but Watanabe re-enters through the other side in a fun graceful moment that kind of caps off the first ark of the match. There are great moments strewn throughout the match. Tamuras punishing kicks and relentless submission attempts keep the intensity high. There is a moment where he keeps kicking away at Watanabes leg that looked absolutely painful, and another kick to Watanabes sternum outside the ring that looked and sounded so bad I’m sure it would go viral if it happened in a 2024 AEW ring. Later Watanabe fires back with no hands headbutts and an absolutely nasty enzuigiri. He also hit pretty much the greatest flying neckbreaker drop ever at one point. The biggest moment of the match though is the kick that Watanabe gets blasted with in the jaw towards the end. It looked to have knocked his soul out of him, and then Tamura blasted him with another and fell him in one of the most epic near KO’s that Ive ever seen in a wrestling match. The fact this went down in a small martial arts gym in front of roughly 50 people is nothing short of mindblowing.

Tamuras explosiveness is great. When Watanabe finally gets a fall over him, Tamuras reaction is to just run it him and go for another big dropkick. His energy looked to be boundless, and it was meeting Watanabes boundless tenacity. They go incredible hard in the last 10 minutes, without coming across as trying too hard, mixing up some amazing submission and pin attempts and counters aswell as callbacks to previous falls. It was a very good crescendo for match with this kind of grand scope. While most of the match is energetic, they don’t throw out too much too early, so even smaller moves like Tamuras 2nd rope headbutt or Watanabes Cobra Twist felt epic when they happened so close to the time limit.

After the match, Watanabe is in the ring, and he can hold a speech without using a microphone because the arena is so small. I hope Watanabe got some credit for this match. The bout was truly magnificient and fascinating. It felt like an epic struggle, and it was interesting throughout. At no point did it feel self indulgent or forced. By the end I was kind of rooting for both guys. It almost makes me wish there were more matches that go 60 minutes, as so many interesting facets of their game developed throughout the fight, but then again most wrestler are nowhere near as good as these two.


An outstanding achievement.



 

Hiroshi Watanabe & Kousei Maeda vs. Hideya Iso & Shigeo Kato (Mumejuku 12/20/2009)

Another genuine gem. This went 60 minutes and was more MUGA than MUGA. Watching this, I didn’t know it would be a draw, and I couldn’t tell that it was going to be a draw. They were using a lot of basic holds, but doing them in a way that they could plausibly set up a finish. I kept thinking “yeah, this is gonna lead to the finish… no wait”. That, to me, is how a draw should feel. Watanabe once again looked pretty great throughout this. Really dug the section where Kato twisted up his legs while he kept coming up with counters. I also really liked how Kato at one point refused to enter the ring, as if he was disappointed with Hideya Isos performance, so Iso went back to twist up his opponents with some cool amateur moves. Another great moment was an almost completely spent looking Iso locking in a Romero Special out of nowhere to a nice ovation from the crowd. I haven’t seen this Maeda before, but he looked solid, and he produced another highlight when he took offense to Kato slapping him and kicked the shit out of Kato. Kato after eating headbutts on the ground doing a Flair flop was another neat moment. The match was full of cool moments like throughout that made little things feel more meaningful and kept me engaged in the match. Figure 4 work in the last 10 or so minutes was epic and felt like a Destroyer match. Parts of this were slightly long and I will admit that this probably could’ve been clipped down to a better 45 or 30 minute match, but still. The fact they did this for an audience of like 40 people and it came out so well is insane.


Sunday, November 17, 2024

Into a heart of darkness

 Beautiful areola Hikaru vs. Thick and hard Hoshino Kankuro, AZW 2024/11/16

I'm not the biggest deathmatch fan, but every once in a while something comes along where I can't deny the fascination, and this match is like it crawled out of the seediest darkest hole. This was an utterly deranged spectacle as you can tell by the names of these two. They are doing a lighttubes deathmatch in this claustrophobically small venue which is pretty unhinged to begin with, the fans having to shield themselves from flying glass shards, and it just gets more and more deranged as it continues. Both these guys are amateur-pro wrestlers, so they don't have the 'wrestlers' physique. In a way seeing two guys with normal people physique butcher each other and bleeding like crazy feels more unhinged. Especially when one of them is fat and seemingly turning very pale from losing blood. This was a deathmatch built around freakish gimmicks and insane acts, and they were pretty freakish and insane. There's a dracula cape covered in razor blades, a brick with forks sticking out, and the most infamous moment of the match of course when both guys fucking skewer each other through the mouth and then proceed to trade forearms, run the ropes and take bumps. Aside from the freakshow acts there was some pretty good wrestling, with both guys doing a good job actually working the transitions and keeping things moving, even working in some basic psychology like building to an Angle Slam. Hikaru (the fat guy) has some cool headbutts and lariats and largely sticks to things he can do well.  'Kankuro Hoshino' is not the BJW guy, he's a skinny guy who wrestles like an amalgamation of several guys but mostly Jun Kasai and Masashi Takeda, and he moves pretty well throwing his skinny body around. Also both guys made sure to act like total psychos throughout. You have to admire the confidence to get skewered like that and continue wrestling, or take the moment and phantomime a conductor before going ahead with said skewering.

Suicappu Kenjiro vs Shikotte 2 Hotte, CWP ??

Pretty great semi-pro match with a ton of energy and snap to everything. The best semi-pro matches are slightly outside of what you normally see in pro wrestling, maybe slightly messy if you will, but still maintain good enough execution and psychology to be enjoyable, will bringing lots of creativity, and that was the case here. Both guys threw really hard kicks and strikes, not holding back at all, and each had something going for himself. Shikotte 2 Hotte is a really impressive serious junior, aside from one moment where he goes for the worm. His movements area really explosive, he hits hard kicks an he has lots of nasty offense like great looking flying knees and nasty dropkicks to the prone opponent. He was really good here also trying to stay on the arm and constantly busting out surprise armbars which I loved. Kenjiro is clearly one of the cooler guys from this scene, as he wrestles a really straight to the point style that he does really well, sticking to blasting his opponent with kicks and some amazing ragdoll suplexes. They work a relentless pace building to some big moments with hardly any letdowns, really impressive match that blows a  lot of ‘pro’ work from the last couple years out the water.

Dekai Ichimotsu vs Hareta Kogan, Health Pro 2018/3/18

Really cool technical match between two guys who have a unique approach to things. Early goings are a lot of fun with Kogan going for the arm and Ichimotsu focussing on the neck/head. We all know Dekai is badass but Kogan also brings a lot of cool stuff to the table. The match gets really good when Dekai would start kicking Kogan in the head from close angles. His stomps, flying dropkicks etc all look really great. He also has an awesome out of nowhere Abisegiri and at one point just hurls himself handspringing into another headkick. The focus of the match is pretty unique with Ichimotsu constantly going for a chancery and trying to build it into a finish. Kogan also does a cool job trying to set up a cobra clutch move, and his big flying dropkick was awesome. Really efficient nifty match, a real showcase for the kind of unique and compelling wrestling this scene can produce.

Hangyojin Masakazu vs Sho Karasuno, TDR 2023/10/29

Hangyojin Masakazu is really cool. He looks old as dirt, but the spirit of Inoki keeps him strong. He does a really good job with his tribute act that somehow still feels competitive. I mean, there aren't many wrestlers around busting out awesome old timey flying headscissors and gnarly sleeper holds like he does. I haven't seen Sho Karasuno in years (never would I have thought that I would see him again after stumbling across him one time as he faced Yujiro Yamamoto), and I thought he might have changed a little, engaged in some serious grappling exchanges early, but he soon returned to his old ways as he kicked Masakazu in the nuts. Old Masakazu taking shoot kicks and other offense from Karasuno is really fun, and I thoroughly enjoyed watching him laying waste to that scoundrel.

Best of the Velocity Matches #6

 Tajiri vs Billy Kidman, 9/17/2002 You give Tajiri 4 minutes to have a match, you're gonna get a really nice match. Even though this was...